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 Post subject: Re: Atkinson Double Horns
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 5:29 pm 
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Location: Cambridgeshire
Why not just buy a regular new Conn 8D. Are they so inferior to the older Elkhart 8Ds from Elkhart? They are available for $3,399 plus shipping etc.

:?:


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 Post subject: Re: Atkinson Double Horns
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 8:33 am 
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I can't speak for the new ones as I only had a cursory blow of one recently, but as they
say "all the notes were there" and it seemed to be ok up top.

I had an Elkhart 8D in the 70s and it was terrific down the bottom but the top was dodgy,
flat top G and I sold it fairly soon. I must say I found it very hard work to play but
excellent for 2nd/4th horn work. Maybe it needed a spot of tweaking or a new leadpipe
to improve it, I don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Atkinson Double Horns
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 1:42 pm 
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Location: Pennsylvania, USA
I recently bought a very worn out pre-letter series Conn 8d on the cheap and invested in a valve job and a few minor adjustments. It is my first Conn. I now understand why they are so well-liked. It is light, responsive, and even up and down.

KevinF had mentioned 'thick dead bells' as part of his litany against low-end Atkinsons. I am beginning to believe that bell thickness is one of the most important contributors to the horn’s sound. There is a fixed amount of energy once the note is blown. (Law of conservation of energy) One might point to breath support and steady air stream as factors, which is fine to include if you wish. Point is that at a given moment there is just so much vibratory energy passing through the instrument. Once the buzz leaves the lips, it is entirely up to the horn and the right hand what kind of sound comes out.

A while back I asked for opinions about Z cups. (Thank-you to the two kind members who responded) Since I could not reason why the annealing process would make a difference, the best route was to rely on the word of others that the Z's simply are better, even if I don't know why. I went ahead and bought one, and I concur that they definitely speak easier at low volumes and that notes are more slotted.

Since there is a fixed amount of sound energy available in a note, how do we want to distribute that energy? I think the reason the Z cup does its thing is because less of the sound energy in the air column is wasted on the metal of the mouthpiece itself, therefore more travels down the horn to places better equipped to use the energy for making sound. Essentially, the mouthpiece is shaping the sound more by its dimensional configuration and less by how it vibrates on its own. I think this may be why the Z speaks so easily at low volumes...more of the pianissimo 'buzz' makes it to the bell rather than being wasted by vibrating the metal of the mouthpiece.

Once the sound makes it to the bell, I think we do want to energize the metal of the bell so that it can add its finishing touches to the sound. It stands to reason that the thinner the bell, the easier it is to transfer the sound energy to the metal of the bell. Phil Myers commented about Schmid horns that they send the sound everywhere rather than just out the end of the bell. I think it is because of the thinner metal in the flares. Playing off the knee helps immensely with that phenomenon. Making that change (under the advice of an acquaintance) was the most dramatic and immediate improvement in my playing by far. (According to my wife, the biggest immediate improvement comes when I put the horn back in the case. :lol: ) I am amazed at how many Americans still deaden their sound placing the bell on the leg.

Is there any good new horn on the market between the $3400 Conn/Holton and the $7500 Paxman? That is a huge gap, perhaps a wide-open market opportunity for a quality Western horn smith? BTW, it was Mr. Atkinson who suggested to me that I say ‘horn smith’ instead of ‘horn maker.’


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 Post subject: Re: Atkinson Double Horns
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 2:18 pm 
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Eric wrote:
A while back I asked for opinions about Z cups. (Thank-you to the two kind members who responded) Since I could not reason why the annealing process would make a difference, the best route was to rely on the word of others that the Z's simply are better, even if I don't know why. I went ahead and bought one, and I concur that they definitely speak easier at low volumes and that notes are more slotted.

I am very glad you like your PHC "Z" cup. A lot of time and thought went into developing Tony Halstead's original idea. We will not give away the secret but you would be quite surprised if you knew what was done to our "Z" cups. Let's just leave it that they are 'super-annealed'.

Tony C for PHC


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 Post subject: Re: Atkinson Double Horns
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 3:56 pm 
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Posts: 54
Eric wrote:
I am amazed at how many Americans still deaden their sound placing the bell on the leg.



When playing 'off the knee/leg' the bell throat rests entirely on the hand.. Wouldn't that 'deaden' the sound a lot more because of the fact that there is more pressure over a greater surface on the bell? I play on the leg and my hand is placed rather freely in the bell btw.

Also, I feel it helps to keep the sound from breaking up, almost the same effect as a garland would have.


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 Post subject: Re: Atkinson Double Horns
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 4:19 pm 
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Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Off the leg, the bell is more free to vibrate past the hand. I notice a great difference in sound when I place the bell on the leg and support less with the right hand. The more wieght on the bell edge, the less lively the sound in my experience. Some call it darker, but I think it has fewer overtones and is less interesting. A matter of personal taste to be sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Atkinson Double Horns
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 1:03 pm 
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Quote:
Why not just buy a regular new Conn 8D


At that price, why not indeed. I have heard that quality may not be consistent, so choosing between a batch of new ones would be the ideal, but not easy to achieve.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: Atkinson Double Horns
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:54 pm 
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Location: Cambridgeshire
Johnlovemusic wrote:
Well, I've been to his shop several times and seen him make horns. He has a machine for making his own rotors and his own bearing caps. He has molds for each slide for each model horn. He's got about 8,000 square feet of shop space. He doesn't have dozens of horns just laying around , they seem to get sold soon after they are made.

I am going up again at the end of May or begining of June - I'll ask him myself. Or better yet, maybe I'll call him this afternoon; although I'd rather ask that kind of a question in person.

So what did he say John love? Does he make the entire instrument or are the tubes and valves made in the Far East and assembled in the USA? Or is the whole horn made in China or wherever? You said you are on good terms with 'him' so please help those of us who want to make an informed decision about buying an Atkinson horn. Reliable sources in the UK say they are not well made and the valves rattle so over to you 'love'.

:shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Atkinson Double Horns
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:56 pm 
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Location: USA, San Diego, California
Haven't gone up yet gentlemen. But the day is coming soon. He said my horn should be ready end of May begining of June. So if we could just hold off a litltle longer.


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 Post subject: Re: Atkinson Double Horns
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:29 pm 
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Quote:
Reliable sources in the UK say they are not well made and the valves rattle so over to you


As I said earlier in this thread, I think the price should probably be the guide; you can get a good price for a cheaply, but well made instrument but a very cheap instrument is not likely to be well made - or was made somewhere that pays low labour rates, or both.

I blew on a new horn from a respected UK supplier the other day - similar Kruspe design to the Atkinson and with no mystery about being sourced from China. It played ok but the valves, while not rattly were leakier than I would want on a new instrument. It was much much better than some Chinese instruments I have seen (it seemed to have solder in all the joints) showing that the Chinese can make things well enough.

Tom


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